Is there an ideal?
This week it occurred to me that my attitude to religion is the same as my attitude to any new work endeavour: panicking because I don’t understand it all and don’t think I can do it.
I feel good about the changes in belief that I’ve undergone, but I still have trust issues, issues with surrendering to God. My issues of trust are really with religion though, not God. They arise from the fact that I can’t be sure what God wants of me.
I think religion is basically about submitting to God, and maybe the specifics of the religion don’t matter as long as you don’t give them undue importance (as I did in the past).
The thing is, though, I seem to be programmed to look for an ideal. I evaluate religious beliefs or practices by considering the effect of applying them generally, showing that on some level I believe there is an ideal way of life to be found. But I wonder if there is in fact no ideal, just a variety of different compromises.
For example, I think about music and dance and how these beautiful expressions of human creativity do not seem compatible with Islamic modesty. And I rationalise it by thinking that in an ideal world, perhaps, there would not be the extreme excesses of fame and celebrity, but people would express their creativity in this way quite appropriately in the informal context of single-sex groups (around campfires in villages, or whatever). That way we would never have our Beethovens or Michael Jacksons, so it’s a compromise, but maybe it’s a good one considering excessive attention seems to unbalance a lot of famous people.
As a second example, a lecturer at my workshop spoke about cooperation and punishment. According to his model simulations, a society in which people tend to do what brings them most success (which is what people tend to do) will be cooperative, i.e. there will be altruistic behaviour, ONLY IF participation in cooperative activity is voluntary AND those who say they will participate but defect from contributing anything are punished. This got me thinking about how punishment, the thought of which makes us feel uncomfortable in our touchy-feely modern society, might be an important part of the fabric of a functioning community.
In each of these examples what I’m trying to do in my mind is to see if I can justify the specifics of religion; demonstrate to myself that they are right, they contain wisdom, and they lead to an ideal situation.
But if the specifics are just cultural relics and don’t matter, then I’m wasting my time.
I am really quite conflicted on this matter. I have found there to be great wisdom in some of the specifics, and so I don’t want to throw them out. I feel that I need external inspiration, need to be led by the hand onto the right path by doctrines and practices and rituals that I could not figure out for myself. But on the other hand I don’t want the specifics to overwhelm me.
You could say I’m torn between wanting strictness and wanting freedom. I want the rigour of five daily prayers, but I don’t want to have to do them in a conference centre and have to explain myself. I want the dignity of hijab and segregation, but I don’t want my work and social life to be restricted or to be regarded as extreme. I want to participate in worship on a heart level, but I don’t want anything subjective or unorthodox. I want to experience the power of ritual, but I don’t want to be told what to do.
Maybe the truth is that the specifics could never constitute an ideal, but there is good to be found in them. I suppose religions are a bit like political parties – they exist to unify people with similar opinions and goals, because sometimes it’s easier to do things together. This is a pretty powerful motivation for joining. Maybe then the thing to do is keep your main goal or motivation in focus, accept what you know to be good of the religion and get whatever good you can get out of it… and wrestle with the rest.
Sarah ELizabeth said,
July 9, 2009 at 5:53 pm
Hi.
I think there is a conservative way of practicing ones religion, and a liberal way of practicing. I don’t think there is an absolute. There is not one ideal way of living, it is all about perspective.
Ultimately institutionalized religion is about rules, and spirituality is the rest. Some people would say the institution is what man says. Rules interpreted or even made up by man, to explain God.
I think this is why some people reject institutional religion, and search for spiritualism…
Of course, I am not as worried about how to practice as you may be, I am more concerned with being a good person in the eyes of God.
Also, you say music and dance does not gel well with modesty in Islam. I disagree. It does not gel well with ultra conservative Muslims, but they are not the ideal. There is just the pursuit of perfection of oneself, whether that be through rules or spirituality is what differentiates people from one another. There is no dilemma with being a good Muslim and liking music and dance, and there is more perspective out there than conservative Islam. Unless, that is, you are striving to be conservative.
Sarah ELizabeth said,
July 9, 2009 at 5:58 pm
Also, P.S. The beauty of Islam is that there is no Priest telling you what God wants, there are opinions and knowledge from scholars, but they are not the authority over Muslims, only God is our authority.. The Quran our guide.
What is wrong with wanting both strictness and freedom? I think this is ultimately what a religious person is.. Rules and also spirituality…
I do not see a dilemma here. I see a fear of immersing oneself and committing.
Candice said,
July 9, 2009 at 10:03 pm
I still think there’s an ideal in life. I went through the same discussion with myself about dance and modesty at the beginning of my blog. I know you commented on it back then. I re-read it and felt so silly, but still, the thoughts are there. lol.
I’m starting to see fundamental Islam as more of an ideal than I used to. It has a lot of “prohibitions” and male-female dancing or dancing for a mixed audience, etc would definitely not be Islamic… I don’t think music is necessarily against Islam though so I think dancing to music would be OK as long as it’s music without haram topics and you are dancing with and for people of the same sex. Of course, you don’t want to be encouraging things that are haram either in your dancing.
I will try to come back and finish my thoughts, I have to log off!
Sarah said,
July 10, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Sarah Elizabeth – I am concerned with being a good person in the eyes of God too; it’s a question of how to do that. The Qur’an and especially hadith lay down a lot of rules, and I’m trying to work out whether there is universally applicable wisdom in these rules (i.e. they are from God) or whether they are just one of many sets of rules people can live by that would be equally good (i.e. they are relative to culture or even man-made). I’m jumping through all these hoops mentally to try to work that out.
I am not very happy about a letter-of-the-law approach where you strictly follow rules to the nth degree. But at the same time, I feel religion has to provide some boundaries and guidelines for belief and practice otherwise we may as well make up our own and not have religion at all. I’m trying to work out what these are and how to understand them. I like your perspective very much, so thanks for sharing!
Candice – I remember your post about dance, I seem to remember you were wondering the same sort of things. I would love to hear if your views have changed and how. You seem to be veering towards a more conservative view.
As a Christian in my student group we had a conversation about whether we should be watching “Friends” since the characters do things we considered immoral. It’s difficult to brand something “haram” when there’s aspects of it that are good; they have storylines on these shows that are touching and there is a human warmth there. In a dance performance there’s inspiring creativity and emotional expression which is good, despite the immodesty of it. I feel most things are good and bad all mixed up. How much “haram” are we willing to put up with to enjoy the good of life, is the question? Particularly when we live in non-Muslim countries (there is no female-only dance class for me to go to, for example).
Sara (cairo, lusaka, amsterdam) said,
July 10, 2009 at 1:50 pm
“My issues of trust are really with religion though, not God. They arise from the fact that I can’t be sure what God wants of me.”
Do you feel this is a problem that could be solved by learning more about religion, for example Islam? Or is it a problem you think you will always have? Personally I’ve learnt to mistrust most information I get from other Muslims and from Muslim sheikhs and scholars, especially with regards to women issues. The more I learn about Islam and God, the more I dislike “Islam” the religion, i.e. what people have created and constructed, including for example Arab traditions that are now seen as Islamic.
Before I became religious, I saw islam as asking too much: too many restrictions and too many sacrifices. However, once you feel connected to God, you no longer see these things as sacrifices, and so you willingly give them up. That’s what happened to me, not sure this applies to everyone.
Sorry I haven’t been commenting much, I’ve been busy moving
Will read everything I missed now!
Sarah said,
July 10, 2009 at 5:16 pm
Sara – I noticed from your blog that you had moved, how exciting! I look forward to stories from Holland.
To answer your question, I don’t know really. I think “knowing what God wants of me” is really a matter of how I understand religion – what I believe religion really is. Is it a detailed blueprint for life? A set of general rules or principles that can be adapted to time and circumstance? Or just a theology and a purely spiritual path?
I think we probably need both the moral guidelines and the spiritual aspect, because I think the two are connected. I’m just not sure how literal I think the moral instructions are supposed to be in religion. I’m not sure whether there is one ideal way of being (e.g. one well-defined way of being modest) and everything else is forbidden, or whether it’s all relative. I can see pros and cons for each way of looking at it.
jasmine said,
July 10, 2009 at 10:20 pm
i think ideals are red herrings: falsehoods and fantasies we build for ourselves to movtivate- and they only lead to disappointment which is a shame, because although on paper reality is not so magical and astonishing, in experience it actually is amazing: even the nasty parts.
“Ideal” is a word seperate from 2real” and “truth” and “honest” – its an unrealistic measuring stick we use to measure reality – and reality will never measure up. Better to have no ideal, no expectation and no vision of perfection – that way: everything is beautiful, surprising and enriching, because you enjoy reality instead of measuring it againt fantasy.
Jasmine
Sarah said,
July 11, 2009 at 11:31 am
Jasmine – I’m coming to the same conclusion, I think. If there is an ideal, it’s not as specific as some people try to make it.
I thought of something you said earlier about the message being simple, as in the ten commandments. And I thought maybe all the other rules exist only to help us keep those basic commandments. For example, modesty in dress helps us to avoid both adultery (or at least temptation) and coveting: of each other’s bodies, or each other’s spouses. We don’t need to be specific about how that modesty is implemented, as long as it does its job.
People may rationalise or interpret something like hijab in a different way than its original intention; they may wear it to make a political statement or to identify themselves, and I think that’s OK, as long as they don’t assume it makes them a better person.
I think I want to enjoy the rich tapestry of life without having to categorise it all as black or white.
Lisa said,
July 11, 2009 at 5:56 am
Here’s my issue.
Islam gives you the freedom to be conservative or liberal in your pursuit of submission. And then my only real problem with findng perfection in Islam begin because I get overwhelmed.
Unlike in Christianity, where even the hard core evangelical doesn’t bother me and doesn’t preach to me, the conservative element of Islam overwhelms you.
And it makes sense. Look at how Bin Laden has single-handedly overwhelmed the voices of moderate Muslims and set us all back 50 years.
I don’t have to listen to music but I can if I so choose.
But, the minute I walk into the mosque, I am bombarded with a number of things. “Oh no, honeymoons are haraam.” On and on….
Just today I received a comment saying that you can’t say Salaam to a non-Muslim.
The ideal of Islam IS there. But, it is buried under a HUGE MOUNTAIN of uneducated imams, cultural conservative Muslims who make Islam feel compulsive, and like you have to give EVERYTHING up.
So the trick is for me to stay away from them Sweetie. But, then you go it alone, and I’m personally unequipped. I need the “Pastor” in Islam and that “Pastor” is Allah. The problem-He transcends time and space and seems SO elusive. Ugh, The conudrums. Love you!
Sarah said,
July 11, 2009 at 12:06 pm
Lisa – I know what you mean about the conservative element overwhelming you in Islam. I sense that, and I’ve never been Muslim. And it’s difficult to go against the tide, I’m sure.
And yet I’m not sure about the very “liberal” movements either… they sometimes seem too watered down. Certainly in Christianity the very liberal movements seem weakened to the point of irrelevance.
Then there are movements that are radical, but in an esoteric, less rules-based way. My church was an example of this. I found though that people seem to gravitate towards common modes of behaviour – which in effect are “rules” – which I trusted more than I should have done. These rules turned out to be less than sensible in some cases.
The other problem I have with the radical esoteric movements is how subjective and feelings-based they are. It’s all about hearing the voice of God rather than using your brain. I’ve been reading a Sufi book and I love that it hits me on a heart level, but I find the whole idea of dreams and visions leading to unorthodox interpretations a bit difficult. But maybe you would get on better with this than me?
Lisa said,
July 12, 2009 at 1:55 am
I just awarded you at my public blog! Love you lots!
Sarah said,
July 13, 2009 at 11:23 am
Thanks Lisa, I really appreciate the compliment! xx
ellen557 said,
July 13, 2009 at 2:00 pm
How about you start doing your prayers and see how you feel with it? You could spend a weekend at home and do them, so you don’t have to explain yourself to others. I don’t know if you pray now but it will clear some things up for you if you try.
I don’t really feel like a more liberal form of Islam is watered down but it all depends on what you’re looking for, you know? If you go into it thinking that Islam is strict then yes you can find that and it will keep you from learning more (I remember I once promised myself I’d stop because of something bad that I read hahah). But if you just go into it with an open mind, you can turn into a “liberal” Muslim. Because really, what is a liberal Muslim? From my personal experience, I would classify them as praying 5x a day but perhaps not eating segregated or maybe being able to appreciate music.
That’s just how I see it though. I’d rather be a liberal Muslim than one that belongs to the haram police, if you know what I mean
I think you just need the “Islam” that’s right for you. For example in Shia Islam, there are Ayatollahs who are men that have spent almost their whole lives studying everything to do with interpreting the Qur’an, etc. So there are a few “big” and famous ones and they basically give fatwas, like you can ask them something complex about prayer and from what they’ve studied, they can give you an answer.
You generally choose one of these ayatollahs based on a lot of your own research and then use their answers. When I first started learning, I chose a more stricter Ayatollah (bad idea) but now the one I have is very modern and much more female friendly (Ayatollah Fadlullah).
I guess my point is that you can read the Qur’an and Islamic books and come out with a strict view or you can do the same and come out with a more liberal view, it just depends what you’re looking for <3
Sarah said,
July 13, 2009 at 9:27 pm
Ellen – I am gradually looking into ritual prayer. You’re right, I need to do something rather than just keep thinking.
It does seem possible to find a variety of “ways” with Islam. Your note about preferring liberal to haram police made me smile! I’m with you there
I like your description of a liberal Muslim. I guess I don’t want to throw out all the rules – I still want to be a little bit idealistic; I don’t want to accept that you can go out drinking and dress/behave immodestly and have pre-marital relationships and still be a good Muslim/Christian/whatever. Not that I’d judge anyone who did, though. One of the things that attracted me to Islam was that strictness that hadn’t been there in my Christianity, but I’m starting to feel that that’s not really what religion is about, not primarily anyway. And that there is no perfect set of rules that if adhered to strictly, will produce an ideal life, because it’s more complicated than that. But that doesn’t mean all lifestyles are equally good, so I’m wary of becoming too liberal, lol.
Sarah said,
July 14, 2009 at 12:21 am
Another comment (directed at anyone who’s listening, lol!):
I have never read any books of hadith, but I come across things that come from them all the time. And a lot of it seems really legalistic. Directions for prayer, for example, seem to be very specific and I absolutely hate hearing words like “invalid”. (In my old church you could do what you wanted in worship: sing, raise your hands, clap, dance, wave a flag around, kneel on the floor… so to go from that to considering the utter precision of salat is something of a culture shock. I did want something more guided, more solemn, more respectful, but do I really need to arrange all the parts of my body soooo precisely?) What’s more, in all the prayer guides I look at, I see next to nothing describing the spiritual significance of any of the movements. It all just seems very mechanical.
Was it really like this back in the day? Or is this just the way things tend to go with time?
I suppose people often gravitate towards rules, and copy people that they trust. Even in my church, newcomers would learn to imitate others and copy their worship styles, effectively obeying unwritten rules. There are of course extremes – extreme regimented precision; extreme charismatic chaos – but most systems are somewhere in the middle.
Islam does state things which have to be done in order for it to be accepted by God, though – which to my mind almost patronises God. I really don’t like to think of God standing there with a clipboard ticking boxes. I wonder how much of this “valid/invalid” stuff is from God, how much from Muhammad, and how much from the people that followed.
I do know of other stories that painted a very different picture. I remember one about a man who went to ask Muhammad what to do about the fact he’d slept with his wife during the fasting hours, and he was told to feed the poor; the man said he had nothing to give to the poor, so Muhammad gave him food that someone else had brought him, for the man to give away. The man then said that his own family didn’t have enough to eat, and Muhammad told him in that case they should eat it themselves. So basically instead of being told he must make up for the broken fast in some way, the guy went away with food for his family.
Maybe things changed at some point? Or maybe the stories have changed and none of them are reliable? I don’t know.
susanne430 said,
July 16, 2009 at 12:06 am
I don’t think God has a checklist either. The Mosaic law had lots of rules and it was clear that NO ONE could keep them just as no one can measure up to God’s perfection. Only Jesus could perfectly keep the law of God and fulfill it.
I always think of Christ freeing us from the law … and then Mohammed tried to put us back under “the law” — only this time they were HIS laws. All those hadiths of how he lived.
Really to me Muslims revere Mohammed as God or almost as equal to God which is its own form of shirk, isn’t it?
I remember when a Muslim friend wanted me to convert, I told him, “Why do you want to put me back under bondage when I have been set free by Jesus?”
Thankfully he considered my words and later agreed that he didn’t want to put me under “the law” (or hadiths) when he saw that I was free in Christ. And by this freedom I do not mean free to live like the world, but free to love and serve others just as Christ modeled for us with His life.
Sadly, western “Christianity” has made a mockery of what truly following Christ is like. That’s why I urge you NOT to look at so-called “Christians,” but to look at Christ, see how He lived and compare the two. Anyone can say she is a Christian, but if she is not imitating Christ in her life, then doubt the validity of her claim. Jesus said by their fruit we would know whether or not they are true followers of Christ.
Sarah said,
July 16, 2009 at 2:20 pm
Susanne,
“Really to me Muslims revere Mohammed as God or almost as equal to God which is its own form of shirk, isn’t it?”
Absolutely. I don’t agree with it. But I suspect Muhammad wouldn’t agree with it either. And likewise, I wonder whether Jesus ever intended for people to worship him.
There’s a difference between following the good teachings of someone who pointed the way to God, and believing (or acting as if) that person is God.
susanne430 said,
July 16, 2009 at 5:47 pm
“And likewise, I wonder whether Jesus ever intended for people to worship him.”
I understand your point, but if you read the New Testament you will see where Jesus didn’t say He was only a man or only a prophet. I think I read on your blog where your guilty secret was you never read the Bible when you were a Christian (or maybe I am getting you mixed up with someone..if so, I apologize). So if you take the time to read the Gospels, you will see why followers of Christ worship Jesus as God. I don’t think you would get the same thought about Muhammad from reading the Quran. It’s not that we read about Jesus and thought, “Wow, he was such a sweet person. Let’s worship him because he did so many nice things.” NOT at all. You have to read the Bible to understand and until you do so, then I don’t think you will get why we revere Jesus the way we do.
I’m enjoying your blog. God bless.
Sarah said,
July 16, 2009 at 8:56 pm
Susanne – yes, I think I did say that once
I never made it a habit to read the Bible daily or in any sort of systematic way. But I absorbed a lot of New Testament through church, sermons, books, and home groups studies – enough to quote stuff without knowing exactly where it’s from 
. I recently read a gospel of Luke that someone gave me on my university campus. It was annotated with all sorts of interpretative comments about how Jesus must have been God.
I appreciate all suggestions and I will put some more New Testament onto my reading list! One thing that concerns me though is understanding where the writings came from and their circumstances. I’ve never understood why a lot of Christians seem to treat it as the literal word of God as if it came down on a tablet of stone. I think questioning who wrote it, when, why, and how, is important. Thanks for commenting.
Sarah Elizabeth said,
July 16, 2009 at 4:54 am
Hi Sarah,
A reply to some of your comments. #1 make sure you are following a dignified and proven book of hadith. MANY are thought to be completely wrong. It would be good to go to a Mosque and ask advice for which Hadith are proven. many will even let you borrow books.
Also, liberal and conservative are political labels, really… But what I would stress to you is to study and find your answers. Be yourself. If you want to know a religion, try it on for a while. You don’t have to convert, but try to learn the prayers and start praying at the prescribed times, see how you like it or if you rebel against it. Also, Ramadan is coming very soon, you could try fasting and reading about Ramadan, also go to any college campus and there will be iftar (fast breaking) celebrations you can take part in… Also, there are college courses offered about Islam that you could look into taking.. There are plenty of Muslims in the community also that would be more than willing to meet over coffee.. There are many out there who do not label themselves liberal or conservative, they just are. Maybe this is something worth a try to find.. Also, it is good to go outside of just your husband and his culture, so you can sort out what seems to be cultural and what all people seem to follow as Muslims.. If you want answers, you have to immerse yourself, there is no getting around it.. Go to the Mosque and Muslim organized events at college campuses.. The only way to find your way is to meet others and to study.. That’s it. If you merely sit and question without proactively seeking answers, you will always question… Scholars study Quran for years and years and years before being considered competent. That doesn’t mean that all that time before they were not real Muslims… You will never know all the answers. But to know the basics, and be comfortable with it, can start your journey as a Muslim.
Sarah Elizabeth said,
July 16, 2009 at 4:58 am
P.S. Hahaha.. Sorry Sarah, my post sounds preachy and I don’t like that
)
Insert any religion into my statement and it is true. I believe this for anyone who is doing some soul searching, no matter the religion. The important thing is what fits you best, not what others think is best.
Sarah said,
July 16, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Sarah Elizabeth,
You didn’t sound preachy, just honest!
Looking through your blog yesterday, I was inspired by your confidence in your own beliefs. I’ve never really had that and always let religion overwhelm me. You don’t, you stay true to yourself. That’s good.
I seem to expect there to be one religious path that makes total sense and works without fail, but my beliefs and attitudes do not seem to completely match anything out there. So maybe I should have the courage to carve my own niche as you are doing.
Candice said,
July 16, 2009 at 9:15 pm
I looooove Friends! Fave show! But the question about it containing immoral things is right… It does lighten how serious doing some of these things is and so I think we don’t see it as “bad”, especially since it’s just so funny and all that, but somewhere, it does have a negative influence on us…
I still watch it though, I am not ready to let go of every little thing that could be a bit bad for me.
Sarah said,
July 16, 2009 at 9:33 pm
I love Friends too!! Seriously, a lot of people seem to hate it, but it makes me laugh out loud every single time. I still watch the repeats that come on at the weekend. Husband thinks I’m crazy… “you must have seen them all by now!”
I think it’s about having a solid moral foundation in your life… if you have that, you don’t need to worry about things like Friends having a bad influence on you. Things that contain real dark immorality make me feel sad and shocked, which is the main reason why I’d avoid them – I don’t enjoy that. But Friends doesn’t come into that category
Candice said,
July 17, 2009 at 6:24 pm
I know what you mean… I don’t see Friends as having an effect on me either, but I came to a conclusion that there *is* an ideal (different conclusion than what I came to when I wrote about dancing) and this is where the problems are… It’s more about the society than me personally… That’s why I watch it, knowing it will continue to exist whether or not I watch it, and that it doesn’t affect my morals.
Sarah said,
July 19, 2009 at 5:36 pm
I think if nobody made any mistakes and there were no gritty topics to discuss in works of fiction, life would be more boring. I say that because I once caught an episode of a Christian soap opera and it seemed completely sterile and dull! I also missed the gritty stuff of life when I was heavily into religion. Lots of hardcore Christians only really listen to worship songs, in the house/car/wherever. I missed the angsty stuff I used to listen to, cos it felt more real, more honest, refreshing. But then maybe if it was an ideal world, this wouldn’t appeal to me because I would never have done the wrong things or had them done to me to get hurt, and wouldn’t need to “work through” it with songs or TV shows or whatever. Hmm…